Some people have difficulty in knowing how to treat the Islamist Anjem Choudary. Should he be treated as a joke, a gobby fool someone to mock mercilessly but ultimately no problem, or should he be treated as someone who is a threat?
The conservative commentator David Murray, in a piece published by the Daily Express appears in no doubt that Choudary should not be considered as a loud but ultimately harmless gobshite but must be treated as a threat.
David Murray said:
“On the dangerous madman side there are a whole set of unavoidable facts. Anjem Choudary’s circle revolves around his own disciples and those of the self-exiled cleric Omar Bakri.
Al-Muhajiroun itself is banned by the UK government, though the group has spent years changing its name in order to try to stay one step ahead of the law. It is now banned from operating under almost a dozen different names.
And the reason is clear. The number of members of the Al-Muhajiroun circle who have been involved in terrorism is unprecedented.
For more than a decade-and-a-half Choudary’s associates have been involved in multiple acts of terror. Indeed a Henry Jackson Society analysis of all Islamist-related terrorism cases in the UK from 1998 to 2011 discovered that al-Muhajiroun was the number one group to which terrorists convicted in the UK belonged.
It was more prevalent than al-Qaeda in UK terrorism plots with members involved in almost a fifth of all Islamist terrorism plots. They range from public order offences to murder and bomb plots.”
Just look at that figure in the final sentence for a moment and let it sink in. Yes that is correct that in 20% of all UK Jihadist plots there is some connection to Choudary’s groups or those who’ve taken his rantings seriously.
Mr Murray continued:
“The list is extraordinary and it goes on. The UK’s first suicide bomber in Syria, 41-year old British Pakistani Abdul Waheed Majeed from Crawley, was a member of al-Muhajiroun.
According to the former Danish radical turned CIA informant Morten Storm, Majeed used to attend al-Muhajiroun lectures Choudary’s native Luton between 2004 and 2005, taking minutes of the lectures.
Another member of the group, Ali Beheshti, was present at the al-Muhajiroun protest outside the Danish Embassy in London in 2006 when protestors held signs saying things like ‘Massacre those who insult Islam’.
Beheshti was subsequently convicted for an arson attempt on the London house of a publisher who had published a book which some Muslims thought was critical of their prophet Mohammed.”
Mr Murray then went on to describe how in 2009 he had debated with Choudary and also how Choudary’s supporters became violent.
Mr Murray continued:
“On that occasion Choudary’s supporters assaulted and intimidated colleagues at an event in London before the police were forced to step in and close it down.
Among those standing alongside Choudary as he confronted me that day was a man who was subsequently convicted for his part in a plot to murder prominent Londoners and carry out a Mumbai-style massacre at London landmarks.
And of course there is the case of Michael Adebolajo, one of the two Muslim men who last year decapitated the soldier Lee Rigby in broad daylight in South London. Adebolajo was a prominent attendee at al-Muhajiroun events, and indeed was guilty of assaulting a police officer during an al-Muhajiroun rally in solidarity with a convicted terrorist in 2006.”
On the other side of the coin Mr Murray does concede that there is a grimly comic aspect of Choudary and he does quite rightly say that many British Muslims are horrified at Choudary, his views and his high profile. In my view it is wrong that Choudary is given so much space to air his foul opinions. It is as if the very worst of the Christian groups sich as Westrbro Baptist Church were wheeled out to represent mainstream Christians, or the extremists that exist in some branches of Haredi Judaism or the Ultra-Left of Progressive Judaism were put out there to represent the whole of Britain’s Jewish community. That comparison may give readers some idea just how far ‘out there’ Choudary truly is.
With regards to some of Choudary’s more silly and stupid remarks and behaviour Mr Murray had this to say:
“Although he aspires to put himself out there as a revered and prominent Islamic leader, his following has never reached much above a hundred or so people at any one time.
Loudly proclaimed events, such as the ‘March for Sharia’ a few years back have tended to be cancelled after gaining the initial public attention which is their aim.
On that occasion the march was due to finish up at Buckingham Palace with a demand that the Queen convert to Islam. In fact such marches are almost certainly cancelled when they are announced because the turnout would be so pitifully low.
And then there is the ‘London School of Sharia’. Choudary’s talk about the existence of this ‘school’ is something that understandably riles many British people.
But when I interviewed him some years ago it soon became plain that no such ‘school’ exists. It exists only in that Choudary dispenses ‘advice’ to followers over his phone and occasionally from the back of his van. His ‘London School of Sharia’ is not some vast infrastructure, but a man with a van.
Perhaps this is all fitting for someone who has himself – despite being a trained solicitor – never bothered to work.
Instead Choudary and his family live on the roughly £25,000 worth of benefits which he gets each year from a state he loathes and wants to bring down.
He says that there is no contradiction in this – that he is merely taking the benefits which the state is stupid enough to dole out.
And if there is something true as well as funny in all this, there is also something tragic. Not least, as I pointed out to Choudary on television a day after the slaughter in Woolwich, the fact that Choudary and his family are almost certainly better paid by the state for his preaching against the state than Drummer Rigby and his family were for his job in fighting for the state.
It is in facts like this that the Choudary case becomes more than about just one sinister clown. Because in many ways the case of Choudary tells us more about us than it does about him.
We will figures like him to be solely figures of fun or solely figures of hate. In fact he is not just both but more.
He has spent his adult life – at our expense – pretending to be a preacher of renown. As a country we have been unsure how to deal with him.
Most Muslims in the UK remain horrified by him. They find him embarrassing and revolting to a degree most non-Muslims could not imagine.
But he also aspires to represent them. In his pronouncements such as those during our latest exchange where he expressed his approval of and support for ISIS, he is doing something very deliberate.
Yes he is expressing abhorrent views. But he is also carefully and deliberately attempting to fire a conflict not just between Islam and everyone else but between the nastiest and worst form of Islam and the rest of us, Muslims included.
So clown? Yes. Dangerous man? Certainly. But also a practised and careful fire-starter.”
This dual description of Choudary as both buffoon and dangerous ideologue is a very apt one. He is not one or the other, he is both. Mr Murray’s final words on Choudary are very true indeed. Choudary is a ‘very careful fire-starter’, he winds people up both in the Muslim community and without and manages to inspire those who carry out attacks and commit violence without ever the trail leading directly back to Choudary himself. In my opinion he reminds me a little of Oswald Mosley, the pre-war British fascist leader, whose followers committed acts of violence but for a long time the paper trail of violence didn’t end at Mosley’s own door. It was only the introduction of the Public Order Act of 1936 and start of the Second World War that eventually lanced the boil of Mosleyism. Eventually Mosley was interned without trial when Britain went to war against Hitlerian fascism and it does make me wonder whether there is also a case for interning Choudary for supporting causes and ideologies that have declared war on Britain, its people and its culture.
Although Choudary is both fool and threat, it is high time the authorities did their best to deal with him when he is seen to be a threat, and makes him the subject of much needed ridicule when he is foolish.
Link
Original Daily Express article including an interview with Choudary carried out by David Murray.
Great article and totally agree with you about Choudary – he is nothing but a fear breeding troll who is given far too much airtime and is not representative of Islam or muslims in the UK, but one who shouls not just be dismissed as harmless as he is anything but that.
The media needs to stop feeding this troll who is obsessed with his own self importance and is largely responsible for such hate groups as the EDL to take root, further feeding into the Islamophobia frenzy that has led to further segregation, disenchantment and fear in our largely peaceful communities.
The Muslim establishment though also need to shout louder to be heard and stand firmly against this man and his loathsome ilk.
There is though, a seemingly sinister thread through all this – almost as if the establishment WANT us to believe that this percieved (and certainly non-existent) threat of hordes of silent muslim terrorist cells lying dormant in our towns and cities exists, that Choudary and his hundred or so “army” of so-called mujahids are representative of what Islam truly is and – as trolled pitifully on the Internet by the racist elements in society – the idea that most most muslims are just practising a form of ‘Taqqiyah’ to hide their true intentions, which is to establish an Islamic state in the UK as our resident clown Choudary keeps shouting.
A quick look in our mostly peaceful muslim communities should tell you that nothing could be further from the truth. If anything young muslims in this country are finding that accommodation of theit beliefs in this country is something to be thankful for and generally are much more integrated in our society than the bleak picture painted to us about the true intentions of muslims by the UKIP/BNP brigade, who are enjoying this geo-political shift in attitude towards Islam and muslims and its link to terrorism – fueled largely by media hype and our own shameful involvement in the Middle East.
Its almost as if allowing the likes of Choudary to have a platform for his vile but ultimately minority views gives our government some credibility to its continued involvement in the Middle East by feeding this idea that there is a credible threat to our way of life from “Islamist extremists” by allowing the likes of Choudary free reign to perpetrate their extremist views.
Makes you wonder who the puppet is and who the puppet master is. My guess would be the master certainly isn’t Choudary.
Dear Bashir, thank you for your thoughtful comment. If I may I’d like to comment on your comment.
Great article and totally agree with you about Choudary – he is nothing but a fear breeding troll who is given far too much airtime and is not representative of Islam or muslims in the UK, but one who shouls not just be dismissed as harmless as he is anything but that.
Thank you. He is indeed a fear breeding troll and his continuance out side of a prison cell is doing a great deal of harm. Not only are his groups spawning grounds for terrorists but as long as he remains outside it feeds conspiracy theories both from within and outside the Muslim communities that he works for the security services.
The media needs to stop feeding this troll who is obsessed with his own self importance and is largely responsible for such hate groups as the EDL to take root, further feeding into the Islamophobia frenzy that has led to further segregation, disenchantment and fear in our largely peaceful communities.
I agree the world needs to see a lot less of AC. I must take issue with a couple of points in this passage and this is that although I’m not a member of the EDL nor do I attend their demonstratons, my experience of EDL members when I’ve encountered them online, has been surprising to say the least. Many of them have attitudes to race, freedom of belief, anti-Semitism, the rights of LGBT people that would not be out of place in the sort of Lefty meetings that I attended in my youth. So far I’ve encountered white, black, Jewish, Hindu, Sikh, LBG and transgender EDL supporters and they have not been the sort of wild jackboot lickers of the sort that make up BNP, NF,November 9th Society type groups. I also would not hold them responsible for a growth in antipathy to the ideology of Islam, I think the shockingly bad conduct of members of the Muslim community has had a large part to play in the growth of antipathy to Islam. The terrorism both home and abroad, the rape gangs made up primarily of Muslim men and the sheer scale of the number of victims of these gangs has angered many people in the non Muslim community who would otherwise have an attitude of ‘live and let live’. Then you have to factor in things like local electoral corruption in places like Tower Hamlets which has effectively robbed those who are not part of Mayor Rahman’s ‘set’ of a voice in local affairs isnt’ helping either.
The Muslim establishment though also need to shout louder to be heard and stand firmly against this man and his loathsome ilk.
I completely agree with you on this point. Unfortunately when many non-Muslims look at what makes up the Muslim establishment and the connections that some of the individuals and groups that make up this establishment have, they really don’t like what they see. Groups like the Muslim Association of Britain for example, with its connections to the Muslim Brotherhood are really part of the problem and not the solution. MPACUK are also another troubling organisation whose senior members have come under serious and justified criticism for both their actions and their statements. However, not only has the Muslim establishment failed, the Muslim community has failed. I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again Britain’s Muslims have repeatedly failed what I call the ‘Trafalgar Square Test’. If there was a serious desire on the part of Britain’s Muslims to show a good and honest face to the world and distance themselves from the fraggles, the Shariah Law promoters, the arrogant supremacists etc then they would be clamouring to fill Trafalgar Square to shout ‘not in our name’. Other groups have done this. Left wing Jews repeatedly, but mistakenly in my view, take part in noisy and well attended demos when Israel is forced to defend itself against Arab aggression. Why was T Square not full with horrified Muslims after 7/7 or the murder of Lee Rigby and why is there not a mass denouncement of the horrific levels of gang rapes that too often seem to occur in areas that are politically controlled by a Labour Party/Islamic communal nexus? My own personal journey from fluffy ‘live and let live’er’ to Islamo-sceptic started when I had to report on a group of gay Muslims. It was the first gay event I had ever attended that required an armed police guard at the door. That set me thinking ‘something is not quite right about Islam and its attitudes’.
There is though, a seemingly sinister thread through all this – almost as if the establishment WANT us to believe that this percieved (and certainly non-existent) threat of hordes of silent muslim terrorist cells lying dormant in our towns and cities exists, that Choudary and his hundred or so “army” of so-called mujahids are representative of what Islam truly is and – as trolled pitifully on the Internet by the racist elements in society –
There may not be as you say hundreds of mujahid terror cells lying silent in the UK but there are too many elements in the Muslim community that are not doing enough to dispel that impression. The steady flow of British Muslims going off to fight in Jihad battles overseas is doing nothing to stem the growing sense that too much of Britain’s Muslim community is acting like a fifth column. It would be helpful to take the issue of race out of this debate as Muslims come in all colours and from many different originating nations. I prefer to see Islam as an ideology and not to racialise the matter.
the idea that most most muslims are just practising a form of ‘Taqqiyah’ to hide their true intentions, which is to establish an Islamic state in the UK as our resident clown Choudary keeps shouting
I understand from your comment that you believe that there is no such thing as Taqqiyah (which I understand was originally a protective device created by the Shia during a time of oppression by the Sunni) but I, personally have been lied to by senior Islamic clerics over the issue of a mosque continually booking extremist speakers. This sort of conduct does not endear and destroys rather than builds trust. You only have to look at the East London Mosque and its continual promotion of hate preachers and then its fake apologies when caught out to see that there is a problem with dishonesty by the Muslim establishment when speaking about theology, doctrine and other matters. I don’t like having to be distrustful of people, I think the world runs better when people trust one another, but after being bitten in this way several times, I am determined not to be bitten in this way again.
A quick look in our mostly peaceful muslim communities should tell you that nothing could be further from the truth. If anything young muslims in this country are finding that accommodation of theit beliefs in this country is something to be thankful for
Some groups of Muslims have a lot to be thankful for and gladly express it. The Ahmadiyya for example who are persecuted in places like Pakistan can worship freely in the UK and in my experience are very integrated. The Ismailis are also OK as are some of the Sufi’s. The problems are coming from the more traditional communities following more orthodox paths such as the Sunni and Shiah who are making up the bulk of those Muslims who are being seen to be troublesome. Britain has been a place of safety for the minority sects of Islam which are persecuted elsewhere.
and generally are much more integrated in our society than the bleak picture painted to us about the true intentions of muslims by the UKIP/BNP brigade, who are enjoying this geo-political shift in attitude towards Islam and muslims and its link to terrorism – fueled largely by media hype and our own shameful involvement in the Middle East.
I do not like to see a linkage made between the BNP and UKIP. It may have escaped your notice that UKIP forbid those who have been involved with the BNP from being involved with the party. I’m afraid that I disagree with you when you say that antipathy to Islam is being driven by media hype. If anything the Leftist media such as the BBC, the Guardian and the Daily Mirror are very much pro-Islam and papers like the Daily Mail and the Daily Express are not driving their readers into Islamo-sceptic views but are reflecting and existing view. There is a link between Islam and terrorism only a fool would deny this. The fact that there have been 24000+ terrorist incidents where Islam has been cited as the driving force behind them or where Muslims have carried them out in the name of Islam means that Islam, violence and aggression have been linked in the public’s mind. It is Muslims who have created this link, not anybody else. As regards the Middle East, the West has often been too close to various dictators I’ll give you that but there was no alternative to getting involved in Afghanistan which was becoming a de facto terrorist state. The Iraq intervention was a disaster, not because it happened, but because the powers failed to have in place a post-intervention management strategy.
Its almost as if allowing the likes of Choudary to have a platform for his vile but ultimately minority views gives our government some credibility to its continued involvement in the Middle East by feeding this idea that there is a credible threat to our way of life from “Islamist extremists” by allowing the likes of Choudary free reign to perpetrate their extremist views.
I think that this is verging on the area of conspiracy theory. From John Major’s government onwards British governments had a policy of ‘if these hate preachers in Britain were just fomenting aggro in far away places then leave them alone’ This policy has been an utter disaster and the effects of it have been well set out in the books Londonistan by Melanie Philips and The Suicide Factory by Sean O’Neill adn Daniel McGrory. What is more credible as a theory is that Choudary was left alone by the security services in order to act as a ‘fly paper’ to attract the more dangerous lunatics. Unfortunately the fly paper is now very full indeed and it is time to chuck Choudary in the dustbin. The difficulty is that Choudary is quite clever and has got enough lunatics on his side that it is not only more difficult to nick him because of how he gives others the boxes of matches with which to light fires but he has convinced enough lunatics to kick off should he be arrested.
Makes you wonder who the puppet is and who the puppet master is. My guess would be the master certainly isn’t Choudary.
I think that Choudary may be a puppet who has managed to cut his own strings and now dances alone and uncontrolled.
At this point, if you have not guessed already, that my position on Islam is this; I don’t like it and sometimes I hate it, but that hatred doesn’t extend to individual Muslims many of whom are just as much at risk from the lunatics as the rest of us are. It should never ever be forgotten that the first victims of the ideology of Islam are Muslims themselves, especially those who are female, gay, have unorthodox thoughts about religion, those who find the ‘Meccan’ aspects of the Koran more to their spiritual taste or those who are secular or wish religious reform.
Fair enough.
I can understand and respect your viewpoint – though I don’t agree with your views on Islam of course.
What I will say is this: Alienation is a two-way street. Whilst we have a large number of traditional UKIP voices now shouting about THEIR rights being trampled on and THEIR country and its identity being eroded to accommodate minorities, it is important to remember we have now a large muslim population born in this country, some now second generation who are also being alienated and disenfranchised by this continuous Islam-bashing which has become fashionable all of a sudden.
Those who are opposed to Islam are entitled to their opinions but what is happening right now especially in the UKIP fervour where open hostility to muslims appears to be becoming acceptable in those quarters, is making BRITISH born muslims become insular and more susceptible to radicalisation.
As a country we need to be careful we do not further aide and abet the likes of Choudary yo feed these fears of alienatio, but it appears that is exactly what the end game appears to be from those who are shouting the loudest against Muslims and this false and contrived perception of the so-called Islamification of Britain.
Fair enough.
I can understand and respect your viewpoint – though I don’t agree with your views on Islam of course.
Thank you for respecting my point of view even if you do not agree with it.
What I will say is this: Alienation is a two-way street. Whilst we have a large number of traditional UKIP voices now shouting about THEIR rights being trampled on and THEIR country and its identity being eroded to accommodate minorities,
In some areas of the country people’s identity is being eroded.
it is important to remember we have now a large muslim population born in this country, some now second generation who are also being alienated and disenfranchised by this continuous Islam-bashing which has become fashionable all of a sudden.
I dont’ think that antipathy to Islam is a recent thing it is just that it is now reaching a critical mass. The terror at home and abroad, horrific crimes like the Grooming Gangs, which are popping up wherever there is an established traditionalist Islamic community and growing anger at what is seen as over the top pandering to Islam by the authorities has come together.
Those who are opposed to Islam are entitled to their opinions but what is happening right now especially in the UKIP fervour where open hostility to muslims appears to be becoming acceptable in those quarters, is making BRITISH born muslims become insular and more susceptible to radicalisation.
Antipathy to Islam has been rumbling away for decades but has been kept down by the state by attacking those who express a dislike for Islam. Now there are more people who are prepared to speak up about and against those aspects of Islam that they see as challenging, dangerous, or not compatible with British culture and society.
If Islam in Britain is to be tolerated by the majority and if British Muslims are not be be alienated then maybe it is time for a specific British Islam to be created, one that dumps the things that are seen as incompatible with British society. A specific British Islam just as there is a specific British version of Jewish custom referred to by some as ‘Minhag Anglia’. Accusations of dual loyalty that are aimed at Muslims have also been aimed in the past at other groups such as Germans, Dutch, Jews etc. These groups have got round this by making sure that not only do individuals demonstrate loyalty to the Crown and people but the community does as well. I think that Muslims need to do more slap down the headcases and slap them down publicly that would reduce both the hostility of the general population and aid integration.
As a country we need to be careful we do not further aide and abet the likes of Choudary yo feed these fears of alienatio, but it appears that is exactly what the end game appears to be from those who are shouting the loudest against Muslims and this false and contrived perception of the so-called Islamification of Britain.
I agree most whole heartedly that the likes of Choudary need to be dealt with but in some areas of the country Islamification is not ‘so called’ but is very much real and that is making people frightened and angry.