I’ve featured Harris Sultan on this blog a few times now as he’s one of a growing number of ex-Muslim atheists who are worth listening to. Now I’m not an atheist myself but I can understand that many of those who leave Islam are so disgusted with Islam that they reject all forms of spiritual belief. On the other hand there are ex-Muslims who have eschewed atheism and have chosen other religious paths including, Christianity, Judaism and Buddhism. Personally I don’t care very much whether a person leaves Islam for another more peaceful faith or becomes an atheist or an agnostic, the important thing for me is that they leave and follow what in my opinion is a better path.
In the video below Harris Sultan is in conversation with a ‘hidden apostate’ from Islam who had to terminate his call with Mr Sultan on account of a believing Muslim relative being due to turn up at his house. One of the very interesting things that came out of this conversation is the idea that extremist Salafist Islam may well have a self life and might die out by 2050. Mr Sultan and his interlocutor base their assumption on the big changes that are occurring in Saudi Arabia. One of these big changes might be the reduction of funding by Saudi Arabia to Wahabbi groups overseas in places like Pakistan. If the amount of money that the Saudi’s can earn from petroleum sales goes down, due to alternative energy sources being exploited, then there will be less money available to support extremist groups overseas. Couple that with the prospect of positive liberal reforms in Saudi Arabia and it’s likely that these extreme groups might find themselves less supported than they once were.
This is all well and good but Mr Sultan makes the very valid and worrying point that in places like the UK, there is little need for overseas encouragement of Islamic extremism as there are a lot of Islamic extremist groups and individuals who have become self sustaining. This means that even if Saudi Arabia does reform and does stop supporting religious extremists outside the country, countries like the UK will still be afflicted by Islamic extremism. However, it could be possible that if Saudi Arabia reforms in the way that it should do, then it might become an ally against Islamic extremism and provide intelligence to nations like the UK about extremist groups that they know of.
It is indeed an interesting prospect to think that the Islamic extremism that has plagued us for so long might go away due to reforms in the Muslim world, a lack of external support for extremism and by Muslims themselves becoming disillusioned with the extremists who make the lives of individual Muslims miserable and who stand in the way of reform. Let’s hope that Mr Sultan’s prediction of a collapse in support for Muslim extremism does come to pass.
Whilst islam allows the power that it does over others it will always have its followers. Islam gives that power to any family that follows it. That is a lot of people that will stick with islam just because of that. Never mind the actual believers that may not exercise those powers.
Completely agree that because Islam is a religion that promotes power over others, then those who are attracted to exercising such power will continue to follow it. I believe that this is why relatively powerless fraggles with dual delusions of grandeur coupled with low self esteem, seem to be attracted to the idea of converting to Islam. It will be interesting to see if or when the Muslims who are so often the first victims of Islamic extremism start to challenge the extremists? From what I hear there’s the beginnings of this challenge in Pakistan from those who consider themselves liberals, but the extremists are fighting a rearguard action against them. Let’s hope the liberals win out.
“Does extremist Islam have a finite shelf life?”
Short answer – No.
Slightly longer explanation:
(1) “extremist Islam” isn’t extreme. It traces its roots right back to ol’Mo and the gang and so is orthodox Islam and “central” to Islam.
(2) So-called “extremeist Islam” – i.e. Orthodox Islam – has far more support within the Islamic canon (Koran, Ahadith, Sirah, Sharia) along with Tafseer both classical and modern than does “liberal” or “moderate” Islam.
(3) History shows that when and wherever “liberal” or “moderate” Muslims gain the upper hand (see Akbar the Great) there is an orthodox backlash shortly after.
(4) History also shows us that “extremist Islam”, that is orthodox Islam, with it concomitant Jihadist raids and attacks on and conquests of non-Muslims was normative in history from the inception of Islam until the advent of the European colonial era.
(5) Observation of the Islamic and heavily Muslim influenced parts of the world today shows that so-called “extremist Islam” is normative. See most of Africa, Afghanistan, Palestine, Pakistan, etc. None of these places are good places for non-Muslims to live (assuming any remain that is).
@ Jon MC
Always enjoy reading your comments. Educational with good analysis.
Can you tell me though, are most individuals that follow extremist Islam poor in the way of wealth or are the majority moderately wealthy or are financially secure?
I would be grateful for your knowledge (if you have any) on this.
Yes the rise of reformist Islamic cultures and their destruction by more Orthodox currents of Islam is depressingly historically familiar. Pew Research also found that Islamic views that we in the West could call extreme were widely supported. However it will be interesting to see what power the conservative extremists of Islam will have if the Saudis stop funding them? It’s likely that radical Islam, like Syphilis will always be with us in some form but if what Mr Sultan says is correct it might be lessened at least.
@F ” are most individuals that follow extremist Islam poor in the way of wealth or are the majority moderately wealthy or are financially secure.”
That depends.
There are some – Osama Bin Laden for example – who are seriously wealthy by any standards.
Studies have shown that western based “home grown” terrorists are not usually particularly poor or particularly poorly educated. In the UK They have ranged from Doctors (Glasgow airport bombing) to teaching assistants (7/7 terrorist).
Obviously those born and raised in Muslim Countries are poor by western standards, but that is not a fair comparison.
IMO the more telling point is that there are plenty of Christians, Hindus, Buddhists and others, religious and not, around the world who are as poor as the poorest Muslims and who DON’T respond by setting out to commit mass murder of those who don’t share their religious / ideological beliefs.
Thus the driver isn’t poverty per se but something else. And the something else is Islam.
It does not help that Islam teaches that all the world’s wealth rightfully belongs to Muslims and so Muslims can and do feel “cheated” that they are not conspicuously wealthy – its their Allah-given right after all. As honest Islamist Anjem Choudhery said “The normal situation [for Muslims] is to take money from the kuffar [non-Muslim]. They give us the money. You work, give us the money, Allahu Akhbar. We take the money.”
So on that level relative poverty is a driver; of Muslim grievance based on the Islamic sense of entitlement and which can then lead to violence.
(On a small scale we can see this in the way the some so-called ‘refugees’ – i.e. Illegal aliens, oh pardon me I meant “undocumented migrants” of course – complain about the food, accommodation, laundry services, WiFi speed, all supplied for FREE by Western governments and who have, on several occasions, committed arson by way of “complaint”, thereby forcing various various governments to rehouse them, often more plushly; the UK taxpayer funds 4star hotels at times. It seems their gratitude for being given a safe haven is unbounded.)
@F211
The Pew research results is not a surprise. It simply points to the fact, yet again, that “views that we in the West could call extreme” are not extreme within Islam, but merely orthodox.
It is the moderate western Islam, as practised by those who were often fleeing Islamic countries and Islam itself to join the west, that is the true outlier (and thus extreme) form of Islam.
We in the West have generally based our beliefs on and about Islam on the actions and attitudes of those “cultural Muslims” who joined our societies and not on the actions, attitudes and beliefs of the majority of the world’s Muslims which we could have seen quite clearly – had we bothered to look either pre- or post-colonial era. We simply assumed that “Western Islam” was Islam (stupidity or arrogance, take your pick). We are now simply finding out that our beliefs about Islam were wrong, but the dissonance is so strong in many people that they simply cannot accept the reality.
I should add that Eastern European Countries which were crushed under Ottoman rule have a clear understanding of what Islam is really like, but you only have to look at how they are vilified for trying to protect their borders and cultures to realise that mythical views about Islam still hold sway in Western Europe.
I used to think “mythically” too – until I studied the Islamic canon (in my 40s) which really opened my eyes to the reality.
I sincerely hope you are right and that orthodox Jihadi violence will be reduced if Saudi Arabia withdraws funding. But let us not forget that such violence is also funded by (for example) “Blood diamonds”, captured oil fields (ISIL), piracy (Al-Shabaab), kidnap and ransom (Boko Haram & others), slavery (ISIL affiliates, north Africa).
It is also funded through Zakat donations, both wittingly and unwittingly (according to some Zakat formulations 12.5% of Zakat goes to support sword- Jihad). Orthodox Islam is also supported by other governments as well – Turkey was the major buyer of ISIL oil for example and there was major Turkish government involvement in those purchases. Pakistan’s government and security services have long supported several terrorist and supporting entities whilst still claiming to be our “ally” (more recently Pakistan has become more overt in its verbal support of Islamist aims).
So I am not sure how much of a dent the withdrawal of Saudi funding would actually have (I will admit that I’m not that up on sources of terrorist funding), but I suspect that it might make less difference we we would both wish.
Thanks Jon. Much appreciated.